Beyond Fighting, Sneaking, and Talking

tim-cain rpg-design player-archetypes brainstorming fallout outer-worlds game-mechanics

Abstract

Problem: RPGs have relied on the fight/sneak/talk triad since Fallout (1997) — nearly 30 years. How can designers move beyond it?

Approach: Tim Cain brainstorms ways to blend existing pillars, introduces a fourth pillar (leadership), and proposes entirely new player archetypes built around items and perception.

Findings: Significant design space exists in hybrid approaches (stealth+dialogue disguises, dialogue-as-crowd-control in combat), in leadership mechanics that govern companion quality and count, and in new archetypes like the crafter and the perception-based investigator.

Key insight: The triad isn't wrong — it's incomplete. Blending pillars and adding new ones creates exponentially more player expression without abandoning what works.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-W993q9xEg

1. The Problem With the Triad

Fallout (1997) pushed hard on three approaches: fight past things, sneak past things, talk past things. It was groundbreaking then, but it's been nearly 30 years. Tim argues the industry can and should do more.

2. Blending Existing Pillars

2.1. Fight + Sneak

Already common (stealth attacks, bonus damage from undetected hits), but Tim asks: can other stealth-related skills improve combat in deeper ways beyond just the opening strike?

2.2. Sneak + Talk

The Outer Worlds implemented this with the holographic shroud — a disguise gadget that let players enter restricted areas. Stealth skill determined how close you could get to guards before being questioned; dialogue skill determined whether you could talk your way through the questioning. Tim sees room to push this blend much further.

2.3. Fight + Talk

Dialogue skills used actively during combat — not just before or after it. Possibilities include buffing companions, debuffing enemies, and especially crowd control through talking: making enemies flee, turn sides, or become stunned/dazed. Tim notes MMOs have an entire party role dedicated to crowd control, but RPGs haven't explored doing it through dialogue systems.

3. The Fourth Pillar: Leadership

The Outer Worlds introduced leadership as a skill that made companions better in combat. Tim proposes expanding this dramatically:

  • Companion access gated by leadership — better/higher-level/rarer companions require higher leadership skill
  • Party size tied to leadership — low leadership means solo play; higher leadership allows one, two, three companions
  • Leadership + Combat — companions fight better (more damage, stronger attacks, higher damage resistance, revivability)
  • Leadership + Dialogue — companions actively contribute their skills in conversations. An engineering-skilled companion steps in to discuss shield generators; an animal-handling companion offers solutions for hostile creatures. Their skills become functionally yours to use
  • Leadership + Stealth — companions distract NPCs while you pick locks, hack computers, or sneak through guarded areas. Tim notes this is a perfect use case for procedural dialogue — companions ask for directions to known map locations, request medical help, or fall back to generic distractions like bumming a cigarette

4. New Player Archetypes

4.1. The Crafter/Tinkerer

A character who invests points in item creation, improvement, and repair rather than direct combat or dialogue skills:

  • Crafting + Combat — build better armor and weapons
  • Crafting + Stealth — create camouflage clothing, sound suppressors
  • Crafting + Dialogue — build gadgets like "hypnogogic goggles" or gas that lowers NPC dialogue check thresholds

To prevent simply handing items to companions and breaking the system, crafted gadgets should require player-specific resources: energy, batteries, or equipment slots (a "Batman belt").

4.2. The Perception Investigator

A character built around psychology, medicine, and search skills:

  • Medicine + Combat — knowledge of enemy anatomy reveals weak spots, granting combat bonuses for targeting them
  • Psychology + Dialogue — highlights where dialogue choices lead, previews next dialogue nodes, flags contradictions in NPC statements (detecting lies through perception rather than a "lie" skill)
  • Search + Exploration — find hidden chests, secret doors, vent covers, alternate entry paths

Both archetypes allow players to invest heavily in non-traditional skills while compensating for lower combat, stealth, or dialogue abilities.

5. The Takeaway

Tim frames this as a brainstorming demonstration — showing how designers should think creatively about player expression. The fight/sneak/talk foundation isn't wrong, but treating it as the ceiling rather than the floor has held RPG design back for decades. The design space for blending, extending, and adding new pillars is vast and largely unexplored.

6. References